#some people are really out here saying that Orym's alignment needs to change

[brjeauregard]

I've decided that I'm not over the "Orym is a manipulator and turning into a villain" takes yet so I'm going to apply that same logic to all of the Bell's Hells

Chetney: Losing control and attacking the party then turning around and being their friend and expecting that friendship in return is manipulative and abusive. Plus the trial he went through to harness the wolf was all about attacking them, how can they possible trust him after that. Not to mention attacking that one shop keeper for no reason and putting the party in further danger because she sent a bounty hunter after him. Very selfish behavior.

FCG: By continuously pushing his view on religion and the Changebringer on the party after they've made it clear they have no interest, FCG makes it clear that he's only thinking of himself. If they really cared about the party then they would respect their view on the gods. It's also very manipulative to try and convince the party that everything is a sign from the Changebringer, especially after they've disagreed multiple times.

Imogen: Defending the Ruby Vanguard and Liliana in front of Laudna, Fearne, and Orym was pretty fucked up. She clearly doesn't care about their trauma and is only thinking about how the red moon situation can benefit her.

Fearne: Stealing from both the party and NPCs puts everyone in danger, but she only thinks about the momentary happiness she gets from it. Ignoring the party when they tell her to not rush in to a situation or lie to someone for no reason shows her clear disregard for their wellbeing.

Ashton: They used party resources to upgrade their weapon without telling the rest of the group. What if someone else wanted to use the immovable rod? Plus the crystals on the end of the hammer could actually backfire and harm the party. It was selfish of him to do so and shows that they only care about what he can get from the group.

Laudna: When the party reunited all Laudna did was complain about her experience in Issylra and made the other group feel guilty about not suffering as much. FCG especially found new joy and a reason to live, but they felt like they couldn't talk about it in front of Laudna. Sure her feelings are valid but she should have thought about the other's feelings before trauma dumping.

See how ridiculous these all sound? It's so easy to twist any character choice in a way that fits your narrative. Orym has been open with the party since the beginning that he's been looking for the people for killed his husband and father for 6 years. Now that he finally has a lead and a way to bring them to justice, he asked the rest of the party to help and they all agreed. He's not manipulating them, he's been clear about his goals since the beginning and the party are all adults who are capable of disagreeing and not helping him.

[utilitycaster]

I have been thinking about FCG and Imogen's dynamic and how much it changed and i have talked about it in tags a couple of times

Like it changed from both of them going "there is something really wrong with you and you don't realize it, so i will help you fix it" to echother. And now they are both very much on a standstill and kinda waiting for the other to the other to "come to their senses"

I have a feeling that something is going to happen and they are gonna start arguing and snapping at each other, because there is a really fun tension forming between the two of them and their own arrogance is keeping them at bay

So here's the thing: I don't actually think FCG is acting this way towards Imogen! I think it's mostly one-sided and coming from Imogen, whereas FCG is kind of just rolling along doing their own thing.

FCG's arc so far has been one of learning their purpose and the truth about the demise of their party, which was obviously traumatic, but they were met with the support of Bells Hells and Imahara Joe and encouraged heavily to make their own path - and found a deity who represents exactly that: possibility, change, and chance. While his path towards faith has definitely been a weird one with its share of incorrect assumptions, it's also helped him through a lot of difficult circumstances, and it's been rewarded with the attention of the Changebringer. They also met FRIDA and were able to make a strong connection with them very quickly, and while they're still figuring things out, there's a sense of peace about it. FCG still does care about other people, but he's started to consider his own needs in a way he previously didn't and tentatively embrace personhood, and can see a way forward.

Imogen, on the other hand, despite learning much more about the source of her powers, knows less about what she wants now. Originally, she hoped to learn where they came from, and she wanted to be rid of them - or at least, she thought she wanted to be rid of him (Imogen's feelings about power lead me to believe she never actually wanted to be rid of them entirely, just, understandably, the downsides). She now knows that she is Ruidusborn, with all that entails...and the party is fighting most of the Ruidusborn, and the source of her powers. And, to be clear, I absolutely think the party is right, but Imogen finds herself wanting the thing she thought she didn't want (Ruidusborn powers). And whereas the party has largely been tolerant, if not always enthused with FCG's explorations of religion, Imogen feeling out the Ruby Vanguard was met with vehement opposition. Which, again, is fair, because FCG is saying some theologically incorrect and perhaps annoying to some but ultimately harmless shit about a canonically good-aligned deity, whereas Imogen was entertaining siding with a murderous group of cultists responsible for the deaths of Orym's husband, Orym himself, Fearne, and Laudna; but I can see why she felt upset about it.

I think Imogen is intensely jealous of FCG, actually, and she knows it's irrational, which only makes it feel worse. FCG is embracing personhood in a way she doesn't like, but that's the whole point of personhood, isn't it? To make the choices that are right for you, considering the needs of your friends but not erasing yourself to accommodate them. FCG has received support, and even a relationship with someone who can uniquely understand them - in fact, even more so, after this last episode, in which FRIDA has also killed at the command of Aeor. FCG, when unsure about their purpose and agency, received gentle guidance and encouragement to take their time and figure out who they wanted to be. Imogen, when plagued with doubt, has received none of that. She's been yelled at by Ashton and Orym (again: valid of Ashton and Orym, but we're focusing on Imogen's perspective and the fact that she probably even realizes they were right, but that doesn't help her actually feel better). She's constantly told by her closest friend (whose own darker power source was seemingly eliminated without ill effects) that she's "very capable" or that she's always been able to make her own decisions, both responses which give Imogen no room to actually grapple with that doubt and have a chance to address it head-on.

FCG didn't know what they wanted at the beginning, and has found an incredibly validating purpose and a companion who understands many of their struggles. Imogen got precisely what she thought wanted - she even now has a magical item that does take away some of the worst effects of her powers - and it's unsatisfying. She's full of resentment and she knows it's misdirected. I don't even think she's waiting for FCG to come to their senses. I think she just wants to feel what he feels and have what he has, but pursuing the gods isn't right for her, so she's lashing out.

[cringefaecompilation]

People overlook Chetney because He is the most boring and least interesting character. Not that he's not interesting or exciting at all, just in a group with the most interesting, complex and plot relevant characters, Chetney sort of, just blends in.

As much as people call orym boring/simple, people can not shut up about him, and can not stop analysing him (in good faith or otherwise). The only time people bring up chetney is in relation/comparison to another character.

weeeeeeeeell. there's a huge difference between the two that explains why chetney can "get away" with having almost nothing going for him but orym gets a bit more complaints when he plays it safe

i disagree with the idea that orym doesn't interact with themes of the story being told but i fully agree that liam sort of set himself up for failure making orym a stubborn jerk that will not budge on his beliefs that's... almost completely aligned with what everyone else has to say. like he keeps saying "ugh ludinus sucks! he's the worst!" and ain't nobody saying ludinus is good. they're all terrified of change and that's why none of them are in any hurry to push the big red button. his underlying motivations are equal parts noble and selfish just like everyone else's so he can't really be "called out" on anything exceptcyrusbutlikesighhhh so he can't pull a beau here and have the party come after him for his short-sighted yet well-meaning selfishness like they did when she offered to throw her entire life away to a hag.

likewise, his backstory is tied to a massively important npc and his arc is about learning that he is more than just a soldier. but he keeps setting down seeds and slooooowly getting to his character beats when the rest of the cast is making it everyone else's problem constantly. and yeah, he's supposed to be the "normal" one but that shtick can't last forever! and it's worse when he is about to reach a point of realization but gets slapped ten steps back by the narrative rewarding him for being nothing more than a good little soldier. people want him to become more than just his archetype and i'm among them!

conversely chetney, who ACTUALLY doesn't interact with the themes of the campaign in the slightest or have anything deeper going on with his character can exist because he's funny. chetney is here solely because of jester's privilege and nobody expects a lot from him. everything he needed to do with his character has been finished sine episode 59 and there's nowhere to go with him except y'know, goofier and crazier ideas. he's a geriatric furry with a raging sex drive! you don't NEED anything more from that!

that's not to say chetney is boring or has no personality traits other than "funny". he has shown moments of depth and vulnerability; who here was expecting a twist that he used to harm children when he was a werewolf? travis can do whatever he wants as chetney and how can you be disappointed with any sad or dark choices he makes? there's nothing about him to get your hopes up with!

and despite all that, i still enjoy both of them as characters BECAUSE of their interactions with the rest of the party. still holding out hope that orym can pull a yasha and get some late-game realizations in.